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piglet: crayon purple on white paper, me as drawn by my son (Default)
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Listening.....

posted by [personal profile] piglet at 01:58pm on 24/09/2010

  1. listen
  2. listen
  3. listen
  4. think
  5. flap your gums


I'm flailing between steps 3 & 4. Want to thank everyone for their comments & input. Here's a roundup of who I've heard:

http://ashnistrike.livejournal.com/
http://asim.livejournal.com/
http://bcholmes.livejournal.com/
http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/
http://epi-lj.livejournal.com/
http://hermetic.livejournal.com/
http://hotcoffeems.livejournal.com/
http://jenwrites.livejournal.com/
http://jonquil.dreamwidth.org/
http://karnythia.livejournal.com/
http://kynn.livejournal.com/
http://maevele.dreamwidth.org/
http://www.mamohanraj.com/
http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/
http://nisi-la.livejournal.com/
http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/
http://sajia.livejournal.com/
http://saladinahmed.livejournal.com/
http://www.sandrewswann.com/
http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/
http://tempest.fluidartist.com/
http://tithenai.livejournal.com/
http://trinker.livejournal.com/
http://upyernoz.blogspot.com/
http://yeloson.dreamwidth.org/
http://yonmei.insanejournal.com/
http://weekdayblues.wordpress.com/

And, of course, here:
http://wisconnews.blogspot.com/2010/09/for-suggestions-and-discussions.html
http://wiscon.livejournal.com/
http://wiscon.dreamwidth.org/

As well as everyone who e-mailed concom35@wiscon.info directly.

I read (am re-reading) the comment threads with care & attention, as well. Are there other voices I have not heard? Please post links below, if you are so moved. I also invite you to comment here, or e-mail either concom35@wiscon.info (to reach the co-chairs, Karen, Joanna & me) or me directly to express your opinion privately (your opinion but not your identity will be shared with my co-chairs & the concom as a whole).

I would also like to apologize for my failure of imagination. I thought I was asking for a con in which we could have these conversations:

1. an apology from Ms. Moon
2. education of each other by those who are willing
3. celebrations of & explorations of the specific groups targeted by her post in our SF/F context
*and* our special topics for this year:
4. Tiptree 20th anniversary celebrations
5. Nisi Shawl, woo!!
*and* our usual tracks.

I am coming to understand that the burden of heavy lifting in the 2nd conversation, above, falls disproportionately on those targeted by her words, and that it may not be possible for that conversation not to overshadow the rest of them, sucking us all into a death-spiral of racism-101 fail. I'm sorry I didn't see that before. (I might still have suggested this course, but possibly less ham-handedly? Hypotheticals not my strong suit.) Huge thanks for the e-mail cluebat on that score!
xpost: http://porcinea.livejournal.com/362597.html
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There are 21 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
rydra_wong: the illuminated Sarajevo haggadah (sarajevo haggadah)

Here via laceblade

posted by [personal profile] rydra_wong at 07:24pm on 24/09/2010
Some extensive link round-ups:

http://deepad.dreamwidth.org/57932.html
http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/1989741.html
http://elf.dreamwidth.org/351355.html

The Dreamwidth content search is pretty good -- you can find a lot of posts by searching on "elizabeth moon" or "wiscon".
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piglet: crayon purple on white paper, me as drawn by my son (Default)

Re: Here via laceblade

posted by [personal profile] piglet at 09:05pm on 24/09/2010
Oh my, that content search is great! Thank you so much (and for the links, as well). Much reading to do now....
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daedala: line drawing of a picture of a bicycle by the awesome Vom Marlowe (Default)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] daedala at 08:41pm on 24/09/2010
Oh, I was going to link as per your signal boost, and find it already here. Thank you.
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daedala: line drawing of a picture of a bicycle by the awesome Vom Marlowe (Default)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] daedala at 12:42am on 25/09/2010
I think that Conversation #1 on your list ("an apology from Ms. Moon") is really problematic. I'm noting this because you're aware that #2 has issues, but haven't said anything about #1. I'm kind of distressed that #1 was one of your goals for the con, for several reasons: it implies that Ms. Moon needn't apologize before the con; it suggests that part of the reason you're retaining her as Guest of Honor is so that she can apologize for bad behavior, which does not seem to be consistent with honoring her; and it may put those she has offended on the spot to provide equally public forgiveness, whether she's earned it or not.

I suggested this as a possibility in my linked post ("drama of reconciliation") but I thought that was hyperbole on my part.
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rydra_wong: Lee Miller photo showing two women wearing metal fire masks in England during WWII. (Default)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] rydra_wong at 09:28am on 25/09/2010
It also implies that she will apologize, or at least that the concom has asked her to or is expecting her to. Which IIRC is not something that the concom indicated in their statement at all.

If the situation is currently "she isn't apologetic, but we retained her as GoH in the hope that she'll have changed her mind by con time" -- not the same thing.

Obviously it would be very nice if she does in fact change her mind and apologize (and eternal kudos to Nisi Shawl for being willing to engage with her on this). But IMHO that doesn't really alter the issues with the concom's decision.
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daedala: line drawing of a picture of a bicycle by the awesome Vom Marlowe (Default)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] daedala at 06:09am on 26/09/2010
You know, I'm not sure it would be a good thing even if Moon does change her mind and apologizes at the con.

Maybe that's a failure of imagination on my part. But I can't see how that is in any way an appropriate goal to have for the hosts of a Guest of Honor. I can't see how turning part of the con into Watch Moon Apologize and Respond to Moon's Apology and maybe Group Hug and so on helps the convention. It could be just that I find that sort of thing squirmingly inadequate, but I don't think it's just me. The NYTimes had an article today ("The Public Apology Is Nothing but a Sorry Act") about how public apologies suck. They were talking sports, not sf conventions, but I think the point holds.

If Moon apologizes before the con? Maaaaaaaaaybe; it depends on many things, including timing, and wording, and so on; such a statement is already well past its "best before" date and I'm not sure I could consider anything she says seriously. But seriously for the love of baby otters, how does Moon's apology work as a valid and appropriate goal for the con? I don't get it at all.

If I go to the con, it will not be because I have any interest in the latest after-school special on the education of one of the guests of honor.
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whump: QR code for "http://whump.dreamwidth.org/" (Default)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] whump at 08:40pm on 24/09/2010
Thank you for posting this. I've spent the past two days angry, dismayed, and distracted because of this huge disconnect between what the committee and the community see the situation and what they want.

I still think there's a big gap, and there's more work for the committee to do, but this is much better than the situation on Wednesday.
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john: Sunset on Doubtful Sound, NZ. Caption: "evening" (::evening)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] john at 10:09pm on 24/09/2010
I want to say "thank you" for this entry. I think it shows an appropriate level of wisdom for a concom. I hope you listen to the voices who choose to speak, and consider the voices for whom speaking is not an option.
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firecat: red panda looking happy (Default)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] firecat at 10:37pm on 24/09/2010
Here's my #5:
http://firecat.dreamwidth.org/689826.html

Going back to #1-4.

{hugs and support}
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trinker: I own an almanac. (Default)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] trinker at 12:06am on 25/09/2010
Hi, it's good to hear from you like this out in the open. I know there's a *lot* for you to process.

Jim Hines also had some discussion in his lj. http//jimhines.livejournal.com
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warriorofworry: (Default)

More linkage

posted by [personal profile] warriorofworry at 02:37am on 25/09/2010
It's a memorable day when S. Andrew Swann and I agree on something. His thoughtful take on Elizabeth Moon's post:
http://www.facebook.com/notes/s-andrew-swann/elizabeth-moon-and-the-category-problem-of-extremist-islam/434759486171
I'm very conflicted about what I'd do if I ruled the world, though I lean towards disinvitation as a solution, given not the post but the post-post (as it were) re-action by Ms. Moon.
I have sympathy for the extent of the problem. As a con-goer, I'll support the concom's decision. As a con-goer, I appreciate the effort you're putting in to steps 1-5. Best of luck.
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lavendertook: annamaria (pirates against racism)

(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] lavendertook at 11:48pm on 26/09/2010
#1 should involve what to do to make the people who were targeted by Moon's post feel defended and supported by WISCON. Moon's apology is immaterial when this is your first priority, and it needs to be your first priority.

i.e., worry less about Elizabeth Moon and more about Muslim community members.
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(no subject)

posted by [personal profile] haolewrites at 03:05am on 28/09/2010
i.e., worry less about Elizabeth Moon and more about Muslim community members.

This exactly.
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ext_6167: (professional negro)

a recent article.

posted by [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com at 02:12am on 05/10/2010
We Were Here Before September 11th (http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/guest_bloggers/3481/we_were_here_before_september_11th) by Amina Wadud.
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